Interview by Ali Keskin and Alkan Chaglar
Following a Conference on the “Rise of Turkish nationalism during the EU process” at LSE, Toplum Postasi journalist Ali Keskin and London Community Post journalist Alkan Chaglar had an exclusive interview with Turkish journalist Can Dundar.
Q. Last year there has been a struggle for power in Turkey, the presidential election crisis, and the people marched in favour of secularism, General Chief of staff took side in this argument and then AKP’s Abdullah Gul was elected President. AKP actually increased its electoral support unexpectedly. Do you think the winner of this struggle was AKP or the struggle still continuing?
A. I believe we should look at the issues from a wider perspective. There is an ongoing struggle for democracy in Turkey. Turkey is trying to become more democratic. And in this process there have been major conflicts and problems. The silent groups are starting to speak. Issues like the Kurdish problem, the Armenian Question that haven’t become problems until now, are starting to become problems now. People are starting to question these issues. Local elections, early legislative elections and presidential elections and the head scarf crisis…I believe these are all stages in the democraticisation process. If we look at the last elections you can see that 40% of people change their political party. The people are always changing their minds though, those who elected DSP or elected MHP (Turkish Nationalist Movement Party) supported AKP in the last election. But who knows who they will back in the forthcoming elections…We can say AKP is the winner of these elections only.
Q. There are interesting developments taking place in Turkey at present, on the one hand a majority of the people are protesting on the streets in favour of lifting the head scarf ban at universities. On the other hand other people are marching to Anitkabir (Ataturk’s Mausoleum) claiming that secularism is in danger. Again on the one hand we saw thousands of people marching to protest of Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrank Dink and saying “We are all Armenians,” but on he other hand nationalists who sympathised with the killer of Hrant said “We are all Ogun.” This is very confusing when we look at Turkey from outside, in your opinion which face is the real Turkey?
A. Turkey is becoming democratic and this is a reflection of the process Turkey is going through. After six hundred years of an authoritarian tradition and eighty years of a republican experience, now Turkey is trying to become a democracy. This is important and healthy, I believe. But at the same time it is a terrifying process. And naturally these fears occupy everybody’s minds. I too am afraid because I am a journalist with my own free views and because I had problems because of my views in the past. I have a child which I want to see grow up. I am looking forward to my future in his country as well, that is why I am scared but I am also an optimist. I believe Turkey needs to face these fears.
Q. It seems when it comes to the Kurdish problem, Turkey is stuck. Why doesn’t Turkey take the experience of other countries? For example: Northern Ireland.
A. When you compare the age of British democracy and Turkish democracy, British democracy has been in transition for centuries, Turkish democracy is only 80 years old. And during these 80 years there have been four military coups. We have to look at Turkey carefully. I mean, there haven’t been any brave leaders in Turkey so far. Secondly the Kurdish movement has its own problems. For instance Hrant Dink who was an important symbol for Turkey adopted an attitude in which he was also questioning his own community’s actions.
Q. Do you believe the Cyprus problem is important for Turkey in the process of EU accession?
A. The Annan Plan would have been an important element in this if it was successful. But today nobody is talking about this plan anymore. Cyprus is an important problem for Turkey when she walks in the corridor of the EU. Turkey will always be questioned over this problem. This problem will always act as an obstacle for Turkey. I believe a solution in Cyprus will help Turkey in its efforts to join the EU.
Q. Recently in northern Cyprus, nationalist media have launched their usual attack on progressive Turkish Cypriots calling anybody who seek a solution to the Cyprus problem a “traitor”, how do you as a journalist feel about this?
A. Although I do not know the case in full, I do want to say that when we are taking sides as Turkish, Kurdish, Secularists, Islamists, North Cypriots, South Cypriots – this is not right. We should not put people into these categories. If we re going to put people into any categories they ought to be those in favour of democracy and freedom, in other words those who do not preach hate, separatism and enmity, and those against all these things. The Greeks and Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus who are in favour of more freedom, democracy and free speech are all really on he same side. However, now if you say the ‘other,’ some Turks understand this to be Greeks, but the ‘others’ should be a question of those who support democracy and freedom and those who are against it.
Q. Turkey has had its border with Armenia closed since 1996, do you think it is time Turkey reopened its border?
A. This is important as this is the only border Turkey has with any country that remains closed. When Abdullah Öcalan was based in Syria, and when the two countries were at the brink of war the borders with Syria remained open! We don’t have such an issue with Armenia, so why do we keep our border with Armenia closed. It makes no sense. Turkey is ready to open this border but there are problems at Karabağ. But I believe it is beneficial to both countries to open the border and from what I understand the people and Mayor of Kars (a city in Eastern Turkey) have been lobbying hard to open the border for years now. Armenians too want to reopen the border. This would be important for business as well as reconciliation.
Q. Do you believe Kemalism is compatible with Turkey’s EU aspirations and democratisation?
A. It depends what you understand by Kemalism. For me there is no such thing as Kemalism. Mustafa Kemal did not leave us Kemalism before he died. I am a researcher of Mustafa Kemal, I like reading about Mustafa Kemal but from what I read he didn’t leave a legacy called Kemalism. This is merely people’s interpretation, which was produced after he died. His biggest legacy however was positivism. But still, 1930s World and the World of today is very different. If you try to take Kemalism as an ideology from 1930s and apply it today it will not work. In fact to do so is an insult to Turkey. Therefore I don’t believe Mustafa Kemal was a Kemalist.
Following a Conference on the “Rise of Turkish nationalism during the EU process” at LSE, Toplum Postasi journalist Ali Keskin and London Community Post journalist Alkan Chaglar had an exclusive interview with Turkish journalist Can Dundar.
Q. Last year there has been a struggle for power in Turkey, the presidential election crisis, and the people marched in favour of secularism, General Chief of staff took side in this argument and then AKP’s Abdullah Gul was elected President. AKP actually increased its electoral support unexpectedly. Do you think the winner of this struggle was AKP or the struggle still continuing?
A. I believe we should look at the issues from a wider perspective. There is an ongoing struggle for democracy in Turkey. Turkey is trying to become more democratic. And in this process there have been major conflicts and problems. The silent groups are starting to speak. Issues like the Kurdish problem, the Armenian Question that haven’t become problems until now, are starting to become problems now. People are starting to question these issues. Local elections, early legislative elections and presidential elections and the head scarf crisis…I believe these are all stages in the democraticisation process. If we look at the last elections you can see that 40% of people change their political party. The people are always changing their minds though, those who elected DSP or elected MHP (Turkish Nationalist Movement Party) supported AKP in the last election. But who knows who they will back in the forthcoming elections…We can say AKP is the winner of these elections only.
Q. There are interesting developments taking place in Turkey at present, on the one hand a majority of the people are protesting on the streets in favour of lifting the head scarf ban at universities. On the other hand other people are marching to Anitkabir (Ataturk’s Mausoleum) claiming that secularism is in danger. Again on the one hand we saw thousands of people marching to protest of Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrank Dink and saying “We are all Armenians,” but on he other hand nationalists who sympathised with the killer of Hrant said “We are all Ogun.” This is very confusing when we look at Turkey from outside, in your opinion which face is the real Turkey?
A. Turkey is becoming democratic and this is a reflection of the process Turkey is going through. After six hundred years of an authoritarian tradition and eighty years of a republican experience, now Turkey is trying to become a democracy. This is important and healthy, I believe. But at the same time it is a terrifying process. And naturally these fears occupy everybody’s minds. I too am afraid because I am a journalist with my own free views and because I had problems because of my views in the past. I have a child which I want to see grow up. I am looking forward to my future in his country as well, that is why I am scared but I am also an optimist. I believe Turkey needs to face these fears.
Q. It seems when it comes to the Kurdish problem, Turkey is stuck. Why doesn’t Turkey take the experience of other countries? For example: Northern Ireland.
A. When you compare the age of British democracy and Turkish democracy, British democracy has been in transition for centuries, Turkish democracy is only 80 years old. And during these 80 years there have been four military coups. We have to look at Turkey carefully. I mean, there haven’t been any brave leaders in Turkey so far. Secondly the Kurdish movement has its own problems. For instance Hrant Dink who was an important symbol for Turkey adopted an attitude in which he was also questioning his own community’s actions.
Q. Do you believe the Cyprus problem is important for Turkey in the process of EU accession?
A. The Annan Plan would have been an important element in this if it was successful. But today nobody is talking about this plan anymore. Cyprus is an important problem for Turkey when she walks in the corridor of the EU. Turkey will always be questioned over this problem. This problem will always act as an obstacle for Turkey. I believe a solution in Cyprus will help Turkey in its efforts to join the EU.
Q. Recently in northern Cyprus, nationalist media have launched their usual attack on progressive Turkish Cypriots calling anybody who seek a solution to the Cyprus problem a “traitor”, how do you as a journalist feel about this?
A. Although I do not know the case in full, I do want to say that when we are taking sides as Turkish, Kurdish, Secularists, Islamists, North Cypriots, South Cypriots – this is not right. We should not put people into these categories. If we re going to put people into any categories they ought to be those in favour of democracy and freedom, in other words those who do not preach hate, separatism and enmity, and those against all these things. The Greeks and Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus who are in favour of more freedom, democracy and free speech are all really on he same side. However, now if you say the ‘other,’ some Turks understand this to be Greeks, but the ‘others’ should be a question of those who support democracy and freedom and those who are against it.
Q. Turkey has had its border with Armenia closed since 1996, do you think it is time Turkey reopened its border?
A. This is important as this is the only border Turkey has with any country that remains closed. When Abdullah Öcalan was based in Syria, and when the two countries were at the brink of war the borders with Syria remained open! We don’t have such an issue with Armenia, so why do we keep our border with Armenia closed. It makes no sense. Turkey is ready to open this border but there are problems at Karabağ. But I believe it is beneficial to both countries to open the border and from what I understand the people and Mayor of Kars (a city in Eastern Turkey) have been lobbying hard to open the border for years now. Armenians too want to reopen the border. This would be important for business as well as reconciliation.
Q. Do you believe Kemalism is compatible with Turkey’s EU aspirations and democratisation?
A. It depends what you understand by Kemalism. For me there is no such thing as Kemalism. Mustafa Kemal did not leave us Kemalism before he died. I am a researcher of Mustafa Kemal, I like reading about Mustafa Kemal but from what I read he didn’t leave a legacy called Kemalism. This is merely people’s interpretation, which was produced after he died. His biggest legacy however was positivism. But still, 1930s World and the World of today is very different. If you try to take Kemalism as an ideology from 1930s and apply it today it will not work. In fact to do so is an insult to Turkey. Therefore I don’t believe Mustafa Kemal was a Kemalist.
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